Prog...Or Not?

Discussion about Pink Floyd's albums, concerts, films, etc. go here.

Is Pink Floyd a Progressive Rock Band?

Yes
6
75%
No
1
13%
Partially
1
13%
 
Total votes: 8

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Straw » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:24 am

Artisan wrote:There. That ought to have contradicted a bunch of posts I've made in here.
Hah, just a few.

Anyway, I totally understand where your coming from. However, just being me, I don't consider "Rock" to be a genre. I think rock is a catalog of genres that are more similar than different. For me, it breaks down into the historic periods as well as different versions, for example;
- classic rock [period]
- psychedelic rock
- punk rock [period]
- progressive rock
- soft rock
- hard rock
- alternate rock
- grunge rock [period]
- post-grunge

Most mainstream rock falls under alternate rock and post-grunge rock nowadays, in my opinion at least.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by quicksilver » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:52 pm

I see it like this:

Main genres:

Rock, Blues, Jazz, Classical, Country, Hip Hop/Rap, Reggae, Electronic, R&B/Soul

I think most styles can fit under these main genres.

ie:

ROCK- soft, hard, southern, Psychedelic, glam, progressive, etc etc
BLUES- Contemporary, Chicago, Delta, Cklassic etc etc
Jazz- Big Band, Dixieland, Ragtime, Cool, traditionaletc etc
CLASSICAL- Renaissance, Chamber, Opera, Orchestral etc etc
COUNTRY- Tradistional, Bluegrass, Outlaw, Urban, Honky Tonk etc etc
HIP HOP/RAP- Gangsta, Old School, West Coast, East Coast, Underground etc etc
REGGAE- Roots, Ska etc etc
ELECTRONIC- Ambient, Industrial, Dance etc etc
R&B/SOUL- Doo Wop, Funk, Motown, Contemporary etc etc
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:05 pm

quicksilver wrote:I see it like this:

Main genres:

Rock, Blues, Jazz, Classical, Country, Hip Hop/Rap, Reggae, Electronic, R&B/Soul

I think most styles can fit under these main genres.

ie:

ROCK- soft, hard, southern, Psychedelic, glam, progressive, etc etc
BLUES- Contemporary, Chicago, Delta, Cklassic etc etc
Jazz- Big Band, Dixieland, Ragtime, Cool, traditionaletc etc
CLASSICAL- Renaissance, Chamber, Opera, Orchestral etc etc
COUNTRY- Tradistional, Bluegrass, Outlaw, Urban, Honky Tonk etc etc
HIP HOP/RAP- Gangsta, Old School, West Coast, East Coast, Underground etc etc
REGGAE- Roots, Ska etc etc
ELECTRONIC- Ambient, Industrial, Dance etc etc
R&B/SOUL- Doo Wop, Funk, Motown, Contemporary etc etc
I completely agree with your list, although I am a little bit inclined to put R&B/Soul in with rock. What modern R&B is has very few differences from hip hop, or at least I haven't seen any modern R&B groups that recorded actual R&B music. I say I put it in the rock category because of all the Beatles and Stones covers, things like that. Thank you for also including ragtime in with jazz, I've been trying forever to find a more or less concrete definition of jazz and I never thought to combine the two. Now it makes a whole lot more sense.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:46 pm

I also agree with all of quicksilver's outline. I've personally always included ragtime with jazz, because of historical reasons and whatnot. Under this classification, what would I be? Ambient jazz or something?
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:48 pm

Rock. :P

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Sun May 31, 2015 6:49 pm

Thought this would be an entertaining link to include in this discussion.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowT ... _Rock_Song
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:25 pm

I could be my usual cynical self and say that progressive rock is four or five drunken Englishmen playing four or five different songs at the same time, but for the sake of my life, I won't. I just still don't see any connection between even the avant garde years and songs by Yes or Genesis or King Crimson or ELP or any of them. I could be persuaded that the Atom Heart Mother piece fits, but it still feels like an experiment rather than a stylistic change or venture or anything. To me, Pink Floyd sound far more like the Jimi Hendrix Experience than any prog group. And of course, not everything in a genre will sound the same. The Doors sound nothing like Queen, but they're both rock. But still, I can't find any of the common traits of prog groups anywhere in Pink Floyd's music. Besides that they're English.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by The Silver Lining » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:23 am

In the end, you'll always get disagreements like this if you try to apply a label to something unique -- such as Pink Floyd's genre of music.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Straw » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:52 pm

Having this debate pretty much made me realize that labeling rock is very hard. Even rock itself overlaps with other genres and rock inside of rock is just rock. Pop is another one that's hard to label, because pretty much any charting song gets called pop, even when its clearly not. Usually I personally think of pop as a song made to sell (using techniques of the time) more than it was made to be listened to. This is debatable and pretty easy to deny but most charting songs are this.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:30 pm

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by The Silver Lining » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:28 pm

It's not prog until it has inverted crash cymbals and distorted kazoos.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Floydy » Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:16 am

And electric bass triangles.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:11 pm

Alright, I feel like stirring this pot again. I found a website that has a decent outline of what makes a band (or at least a song or album) "progressive rock", although I prefer the term "art rock" myself. Let's see how it applies to Pink Floyd.

1. "Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies." (like "Echoes")

2. "Many progressive rock songs are made up of shorter parts..." (like "Shine On You Crazy Diamond")

3. "Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, madness, and literature." (like The Dark Side of the Moon)

4. "Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album or series of albums..." (like The Wall)

5. "Prominent use of instruments unusual in rock music, including electronic instrumentation, as well as unusual vocal styles." (they use synthesizers and the Mellotron as examples of unusual instruments (which I don't really agree with), and while a case could be made for how Syd played his guitar with weird objects, I could concede that this requirement isn't met)

6. "...Prominence of multi-instrumentalists..." (like Ummagumma's studio side)

7. "Use of unusual time signatures, rhythmic techniques, scales, or tunings." (like "See-Saw" or "Money")

8. "An extremely wide dynamic range, with very quiet and very loud passages often occurring in the same piece of music." (like The Endless River)

9. "Solo passages for virtually every instrument." (I'll concede here too, Rick and Nick didn't really get a lot of solo time to shine)

10. "Inclusion of classical pieces on albums." (not as far as I'm aware, as it refers to adapting actual pre-existing classical pieces and not writing original ones)

11. "An aesthetic linking the music with visual art..." (Pink Floyd might as well be pioneers of this, from album covers to live shows)

12. "The use of sound effects in compositions..." (again, Pink Floyd were the studio masters)

13. "Exchanging of members." (Tony Levin did play on A Momentary Lapse of Reason, and Roger and David have played with a lot of different people in their solo careers... but I'll be willing to concede this point too)


That's 9 out of 13 for sure, 11 out of 13 if I stick to my guns. We're looking at Pink Floyd being between 69%-85% "prog", and that's good enough for me. ;)
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:26 pm

If I may... :P

1. Allman Brothers are prog? Grateful Dead? Phish? Jam bands?
2. Parts? Intro, verse, chorus... The Ramones are prog? (lol) What about Station to Station, or Stairway to Heaven?
3. Nearly every Black Sabbath song, at least in their early years?
4. The first five Beatles albums?
5. Unusual instruments? AC/DC used bagpipes...
6. Mick Jagger plays harmonica, bass, piano, and guitar (and better than me, I might add)
7. CCR's "Wrote A Song For Everyone" has an intro of 6/8+2/8
8. Well, they're one of the only bands that hasn't been badly remastered :P may I direct you to early Springsteen for great dynamics
9. Again, Springsteen, as well as any live Cream, Jimi Hendrix, Who etc. performance
10. In terms of sampling? Well, I'm pretty sure there are hip hop songs that have sampled O Fortuna or something... they're prog?
11. Punk has a pretty strong visual going for it
12. If you give me some time I can list a number of songs that have sound effects in them, just none I can remember off the top of my head
13. As in collaborations? Paul McCartney's been involved with a ton of people... as has Pete Townshend... and Dave Grohl...

Not saying any of your points are wrong, but that artists that are definitely not prog exhibit them as well.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:15 am

Eh, fair enough. Prog is inclusive, not exclusive. I still consider The Beatles to be a progressive band anyway, and Quadrophenia is definitely a progressive album. I will contest #1, although it depends on the definition of "composition". Most of those bands have a reputation as 'jam bands' where they go out and just play shit for hours on end, as opposed to refining what may start as a jam into a well-defined song (like "Second Home by the Sea" by Genesis). So I don't consider them.

And the point of multiple requirements seems to have been missed, but oh well. I don't know why I bother sometimes.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:55 pm

My post was a joke dude. I know what you were going for. :P Still doesn't change my mind but I'm not just being an ass this time.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Dyolf » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:49 am

Artisan wrote:If I may... :P

1. Allman Brothers are prog? Grateful Dead? Phish? Jam bands?
2. Parts? Intro, verse, chorus... The Ramones are prog? (lol) What about Station to Station, or Stairway to Heaven?
3. Nearly every Black Sabbath song, at least in their early years?
4. The first five Beatles albums?
5. Unusual instruments? AC/DC used bagpipes...
6. Mick Jagger plays harmonica, bass, piano, and guitar (and better than me, I might add)
7. CCR's "Wrote A Song For Everyone" has an intro of 6/8+2/8
8. Well, they're one of the only bands that hasn't been badly remastered :P may I direct you to early Springsteen for great dynamics
9. Again, Springsteen, as well as any live Cream, Jimi Hendrix, Who etc. performance
10. In terms of sampling? Well, I'm pretty sure there are hip hop songs that have sampled O Fortuna or something... they're prog?
11. Punk has a pretty strong visual going for it
12. If you give me some time I can list a number of songs that have sound effects in them, just none I can remember off the top of my head
13. As in collaborations? Paul McCartney's been involved with a ton of people... as has Pete Townshend... and Dave Grohl...

Not saying any of your points are wrong, but that artists that are definitely not prog exhibit them as well.
Well Led Zeppelin did dip their toe in the prog pool now and then, but were pulled away by Robert Plant who thought it to be too "serious". Hence why the Zep-Yes supergroup XYZ (Plant, Page, Squire, White) never took off (one song did make it to a Yes album, "Mind Drive"). "Stairway to Heaven", "Carouselambra", "Achilles Last Stand" are all kind of prog.

Black Sabbath could be considered a kind of proto-progressive metal/hard rock I guess. Rick Wakeman even appears on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:00 pm

Rick Wakeman appeared on everything though, from David Bowie to Lou Reed. I can see Carouselambra as being prog, but apart from the 5/4 blasts I don't see Achilles Last Stand. Stairway just increases in tempo and adds layers. I can kind of see Sabbath, the way they glued all their song fragments together on the earlier albums.

Still, I listen to Genesis and Yes and the like and I find all of the things that I consider characteristic of prog in full force. I hear Floyd and I hear an imaginative rock band.

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:08 pm

There are more similarities between the post-1980 Genesis and Pink Floyd than there is the pre-1980 Genesis, if you ask me. But post-1980 Genesis is definitely not progressive rock. I'm biased enough to call them 'art rock' instead of pop, but it certainly doesn't help my case any to point that out. :lol:
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Artisan » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:22 pm

Objective classification will never be achieved - there are people who take goregrind lyrics seriously, after all - so it all boils down to what you think. I'm not trying to convince anybody that Pink Floyd is not progressive rock, just stating my personal opposition to it and why I am opposed to it (and, because it's me, being intolerable in the process, haha). I don't understand many of the points being made here much as some of you don't understand mine. We're just here to have fun!

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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by The Silver Lining » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:27 pm

Isn't having fun against this forum's rules? I must've forgotten to put that in...
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Dyolf » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:48 pm

SunShade wrote:There are more similarities between the post-1980 Genesis and Pink Floyd than there is the pre-1980 Genesis, if you ask me. But post-1980 Genesis is definitely not progressive rock. I'm biased enough to call them 'art rock' instead of pop, but it certainly doesn't help my case any to point that out. :lol:
"Progressive" doesn't mean rolling out weird time signatures, songs about sun worship and keyboard solos year after year. It means progressing! In the 70s this meant guitar effects units, moog synthesisers and filling a side of an LP with one song. By the 80s it meant electric drums, programmable drum machines, sampling at the touch of a button, synth guitars, and many new keyboard sounds to replace the likes of the mellotron. Since then there has been little progress in music technology so we're still using the same instruments and effects for the most part, which is partly why prog is struggling to keep its head above water, and when all the original prog bands have died of old age, the genre will be close behind.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:46 pm

I think the most recent "advancement" in music recording was the beginning of samples, but rock music never really clung to that idea. Not the way that rap, hip-hop, electronica, and vaporwave did. I think it's mainly because it's a very digital thing, and despite rock music being "the pinnacle of music" (to some people, because fuck classical, jazz, world music, etc.), rock artists sure do resist anything synthetic or digital any more. Honestly, I think pop producers are the ones making advancements these days in terms of technology.

But we don't want to give pop music any sort of artistic credibility. That would be blasphemy!

EDIT: Adding to that, that's why Dave Grohl pisses me off. He treats anyone that uses a keyboard or a synthesizer as if they're just someone that presses buttons and has songs made for him. I could write and play circles around that douchebag, fuck him.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Dyolf » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:55 pm

SunShade wrote:I think the most recent "advancement" in music recording was the beginning of samples, but rock music never really clung to that idea. Not the way that rap, hip-hop, electronica, and vaporwave did. I think it's mainly because it's a very digital thing, and despite rock music being "the pinnacle of music" (to some people, because fuck classical, jazz, world music, etc.), rock artists sure do resist anything synthetic or digital any more. Honestly, I think pop producers are the ones making advancements these days in terms of technology.

But we don't want to give pop music any sort of artistic credibility. That would be blasphemy!

EDIT: Adding to that, that's why Dave Grohl pisses me off. He treats anyone that uses a keyboard or a synthesizer as if they're just someone that presses buttons and has songs made for him. I could write and play circles around that douchebag, fuck him.
Hmm... Give me Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Rick Wright, Patrick Moraz, or even Matt Bellamy over Grohl any day.
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Re: Prog...Or Not?

Post by Alec Taylor » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:26 pm

I would add Tony Banks to that fantastic list, but his solo work is just so... impenetrable? Indescribable? I have no words for it. I'm really trying to get into it, and it's not that I don't like it, but there's just something about it that I can't put my finger on. I think Darren Lock's review of The Fugitive says it best, even though I like the album a fair amount more than he does.
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