The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

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The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

The Final Cut (1983)
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A Momentary Lapse of Reason (1987)
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The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Vegetable Layne » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:54 am

Just thought I'd star the INEVITABLE thread, as the old saying goes "all this has happened before, and all of it will happen again".

So, which one do you prefer? Roger Waters unexpected, but perhaps fitting farewell with his salute to his father and his generation in "The Final Cut", or Gilmour's first attempt at steering the Floyd wheel after Waters' striking out?

What do you think?
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Vegetable Layne » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:12 am

OK, to share my two cents.... I like both almost equally. And by that, I think that each album has its own strengths, and collectively they rival very closesly in terms of effect for me. Roger's soulful lyrics, tone and pace are nigh perfect, but there is a distinct lack of aethereal feel that Wright contributed even in The Wall, and Gilmour's part, although there and as strong as ever, was not as prominent as usual. Momentary, meanwhile, while not a concept album, lacks cohesiveness. Musically its better than Final Cut, as it has more range and is more dynamic, but that also means that, when some songs suck, they eat space. Thats the case with "Dogs of War" and "New Machine", which just don't work for me. They both seem like Waters-wannabe's, in both mood and lyrics, and they don't really succeed in either. That said, Momentary has "Learning to Fly", "Terminal Frost" and "Sorrow", three bona-fide classics.

In short: Both almost equally good, TFC edges out because of its narrative. However, TFC misses out on Wright, and AMLOR misses out on Waters, and some more Wright/Mason. Of course.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby The Silver Lining » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:50 am

It's a close call when you're looking at the music itself. I'm a very big Waters fan, but AMLoR holds a special place in my heart because of songs like Learning To Fly, Terminal Frost and Sorrow. TFC has amazing music as well, although it's completely different -- The Gunner's Dream, Your Possible Pasts, The Final Cut and Two Suns in the Sunset are so emotional and meaningful, you can hear the pain the album carries in every note of the guitar, saxophone and vocals.

Both albums have some terrible music though, like Dogs of War, and The Post War Dream. They also both have terribly cheesy music that simply does not fit with the image of Pink Floyd (Dogs of War, Paranoid Eyes) and finally some pointless filler songs that should simply have been excluded (A New Machine, One of the Few, Get Your Filthy Hands off My Dessert). These songs sort of break the flow of the albums for me, which is a shame. Pink Floyd is great because of the amazing dynamics and continuity in their albums, and that's something these two are lacking.

In the end I like The Final Cut more, because of the emotion in Roger's voice, but also because the lyrics are simply way better. I personally don't understand what people are talking about when they say the lyrics are masturbatory anti-war propaganda, because that's not what the majority of the lyrics are about. Other than about three songs, the songs are way deeper than that, and they mostly talk about the conflicting feelings that people have concerning war, education, etc. On the other hand, AMLoR's lyrics aren't quite memorable, and rely on metaphors and imagery instead of actual content. Learning To Fly and Sorrow, for instance, are full of beautiful phrases, but they're completely disjointed as a whole. Then some songs (such as On the Turning Away, One Slip, Dogs of War) have lyrics that make it truly difficult to believe that you're listening to a Pink Floyd record.

Short version of this post: My opinion of AMLoR and TFC is that they're both a lot worse than Pink Floyd's best albums, but they're also David's best solo album and Roger's best solo album respectively.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Dyolf » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:06 am

I voted for AMLOR. It's much easier to listen to than TFC (which is hard work to listen to all the way through). David only sings on "Not Now John" on TFC which is appalling, he's a much better singer than Roger. To be honest, musically TFC isn't very interesting, it's all Roger re-hashing old ideas but in a worse way than he'd done before, which makes me wonder why it exists at all.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Vegetable Layne » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:11 am

Its interesting, but I read somewhere that Waters did intend TFC to be a solo album but the record company forced him to make into a Pink Floyd album because of the brand recognition. If true, it could explain a good deal of Waters' absolute clash with Dave - this was too personal for him.

In any case, I still consider them Floyd albums, although certainly not their most representative.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby The Silver Lining » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:33 pm

Vegetable Layne wrote:Its interesting, but I read somewhere that Waters did intend TFC to be a solo album but the record company forced him to make into a Pink Floyd album because of the brand recognition. If true, it could explain a good deal of Waters' absolute clash with Dave - this was too personal for him.

In any case, I still consider them Floyd albums, although certainly not their most representative.


I think they didn't particularly want this album to be a Pink Floyd album. Pink Floyd simply had obligations with the record company to release something, and since Roger was the only driving force at that point, he took the bull by the horns and played his album with Pink Floyd instead of playing it by himself. At least, that's how I remember it.

My last remark in my previous post was meant as a tongue-in-cheek joke, as people often say that TFC and AMLoR aren't real Pink Floyd albums.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Lady Floydian » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:12 pm

A Momentary Lapse of Reason. I'd rather drum machines, cheesy saxophone, and occasionally dodgy lyrics over feeling like I'm being lectured to by my dad. Roger is a fantastic lyricist, but without someone to keep him in check, he can turn incredibly screechy and bitter, and I don't really want to listen to that.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Artisan » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:20 pm

The Final Cut for me. Despite a few slips here and there, the emotional resonance of the slbum is still with me ten months after hearing it. Though I like 4 or 5 songs off AMLOR better, I can't deny my love for Roger's farewell. Incidentally, I've just learned that a friend of a friend is absolutely obsessed with Roger Waters and doesn't consider AMLOR a Floyd album. I wonder what they would pick.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby The Silver Lining » Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:37 pm

Lady Floydian wrote:A Momentary Lapse of Reason. I'd rather drum machines, cheesy saxophone, and occasionally dodgy lyrics over feeling like I'm being lectured to by my dad. Roger is a fantastic lyricist, but without someone to keep him in check, he can turn incredibly screechy and bitter, and I don't really want to listen to that.


I still don't really get where the "lecture" feeling comes from, other than these few times where he mentions Margaret Thatcher. Sure, the album's lyrics are bitter, but so are DSotM, WYWH, Animals, The Wall, TDB and (to some extent) AMLoR. Personally I don't really see how TFC's lyrics are different from that, other than the fact that they're much more personal and strongly related to the same themes.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Lady Floydian » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:02 pm

Maybe it's just Roger's vocal style on that album, but that's definitely the impression I got. It's the way he tends to really hammer a point home over and over and over again that really reminded me of that. It was there to some degree on Animals, but the other members of the band were involved enough that it was still melodic enough to listen to. The Wall was a step away from that, and The Final Cut was nowhere near it.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby mabewa » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:51 am

Definitely TFC. I find the lyrics to be very beautiful, emotional and powerful--I actually like the album much better than The Wall in terms of lyrics. The music is quite limited for Floyd--it's also beautiful, but most of the songs sound more or less the same. That's the album's biggest fault. But the lyrics and Roger's delivery of them make it one of their better post-Animals albums.

The other thing about Final Cut is that, yeah, it's barely a Floyd album. Much of it consists of Roger singing over an acoustic guitar (likely played by himself), and/or keyboards, also played by non-band members. On the solos, Dave and Nick come in and it suddenly sounds much more like Floyd. But if it's a Waters solo album, it's my favorite of his albums!

AMLOR I like alright, but it's one of my least favorite Floyd albums. The music is mostly fine in terms of composition, but some of the lyrics (especially Dogs of War) and some of the production really bring it down for me. It's not even the 80's stuff so much that I don't like, but more like the kinda fake, bland sound that you especially get on Terminal Frost. I actually like the poppier first side better overall. Like the previous couple of albums, it also lacks the band's musical personality, due to Rick and Nick's low involvement in the playing. Having said that, Sorrow is pretty awesome, Learning to Fly is a great example of a 70's band doing a good 80's pop song, and One Slip and On the Turning Away are strong tracks as well.

I'm really hoping that they end up releasing an alt version of it with Nick's new drumming and Rick's keys plucked from live performances. I don't think they'll ever be able to make it into a really good PF album, but having Rick and Nick playing more and remixing it could really improve it.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby JeffX » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:14 pm

AMLOR has it's good points. Overall, I'd rather listen to The Final Gift. I like the lyrics and while it's more of a Roger Waters album, I enjoy it more than AMLOR.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Vegetable Layne » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:59 pm

What kinda benefits TFC is that it has more heart to it than AMLOR, in my opinion. The former really is a heartfelt, personal tribute to his father and his generation, as well as his own personal anger at the world governments. Its a post-script to The Wall, signed Roger Waters.

Of course, it would've been a lot better had it had a little Gilmour/Mason in it, but anyway...
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Charade I Am » Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:44 am

The Final Cut for me too. I consider myself more of a Gilmour fan than a Waters fan, but I still absolutely love TFC. Definitely in my top 5. It's emotionally powerful, and the few guitar/saxophone solos that it still has are also really great. Highlights for me are Two Suns, Gunner's Dream, and the title track.

I tend to have a fairly negative feeling about AMLOR when I think of the album as a whole, but then I remember that it still has some songs I really like. On The Turning Away and Learning to Fly are great, and I just recently re-realized how good Sorrow and even Terminal Frost are.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Floydy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:09 am

It's The Final Cut for me. I get more pleasure from that album than I do from AMLoR.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Straw » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:14 am

I prefer The Final Cut over A Momentary Lapse of Reason and The Division Bell (sorry Dave). BUT, I prefer The Endless River over The Final Cut (sorry Roger).
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Vegetable Layne » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:17 am

Actually, I prefer TDB over TFC. TER... not sure yet.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby quicksilver » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:48 pm

Anyone realize that the B-side of "The Heroes Return (Part 1) 45 contains "The Heroes Return (Part 2) ?
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Artisan » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:22 pm

I remember hearing that but I can't remember what it sounded like. If I remember right it was quite different.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby quicksilver » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:33 pm

Thank you PFO
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Alec Taylor » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:41 pm

I just realized that I never posted in this thread. :shock:

I'm gonna put AMLoR over TFC. I completely agree with Vegetable Layne about TFC feeling way more personal as opposed to the cold, synthetic Lapse, but for me that's not a factor in how much I like it. Lapse just has so many great musical moments (definitely more good moments than good full songs) that I can't help but love it. While I don't really hate TFC as much as people might think, it just doesn't stick in my mind from a musical standpoint the way Lapse can. Besides, the change about 2:20 in to "Terminal Frost" is absolutely divine...any album with something like that is just going to have more merit IMO.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Vegetable Layne » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:32 pm

Yeah, there's definitely lots to love in Lapse, like Terminal Frost, Signs of Life and Sorrow. I always point those out when they're slagging it off, even though there is a point to make about it being as much a Gilmour solo album as much as TFC being a solo Waters album.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Artisan » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:46 pm

I always assumed I was the only one who liked Signs of Life. I love the mood and the Sorrow riff being played an octave up, and I'm pretty sure Nick's spoken bits say "one" in there. Kind of choppy, and it hasn't exactly aged gracefully, but it still holds its ground, in my opinion.

Of course, I did vote for The Final Cut...
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Alec Taylor » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:47 pm

And I can't argue with that either. Nick and Rick had minuscule amounts of input on Lapse. The weird thing is that David's album About Face from three years prior has a lot more variety in its arrangements and features stronger lyrics from himself (and a few from Pete Townshend). It's like, when David is just trying to be David, it's good, but when David is trying to be Pink Floyd (by himself), it just doesn't gel.
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Re: The Final Cut vs. A Momentary Lapse of Reason

Postby Lady Floydian » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:54 pm

SunShade wrote:And I can't argue with that either. Nick and Rick had minuscule amounts of input on Lapse. The weird thing is that David's album About Face from three years prior has a lot more variety in its arrangements and features stronger lyrics from himself (and a few from Pete Townshend). It's like, when David is just trying to be David, it's good, but when David is trying to be Pink Floyd (by himself), it just doesn't gel.


I can understand that. I actually don't care for About Face all that much honestly, if I were to rank it amongst his other solo albums. It would go On an Island -- Rattle That Lock -- David Gilmour -- About Face. It's not awful per se, just not up to snuff compared to other work he's done.
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