Language discussion

[Dyolf]

Here's some fun with American English, for all of the non-Americans. What do you make of the words I'd've, y'all'd've, and y'all're?

We're used to it because of the amount of American media we're subjected to because out TV stations are too lazy to make their own programmes. Linguistically the y'all is simply (and very oddly) a reverting to a system of singular 'you' and plural 'you', which English has lost (thee and thou - thou became you). Most European languages still have the singular and plural 'you', the only ones I know have lost it are English and Irish, but I dare say others have too.

[Dyolf]

I was thinking about this on my drive home from work today; something a little odd about Welsh numbers. So I'll post it and invite you all to share anything odd about your native languages, or any language you know of really. The Welsh numbers 1-10 are:

1 - un
2- dau (m) / dwy (f)
3 - tri (m) / tair (f)
4 - pedwar (m) / pedair (f)
5 - pump
6 - chwech
7 - saith
8 - wyth
9 - naw
10 - deg

In Welsh, you do not need to use plural words with the numbers 1-10. I've mentioned before that Welsh has a system of mutations. The number un (one) causes soft mutation to feminine singular nouns:

ci = dog, cath = cat

un ci = one dog
un gath = one cat

The numbers dau and dwy both cause soft mutation:

cath = cat; ci = dog

dau gi - two dogs
dwy gath - two cats

Tri causes aspirate mutation but tair causes no mutations:

tri chi - three dogs
tair cath - three cats

The numbers pump and chwech are used when just using the number:

Mae gen i bump - I have five
Mae gen ti chwech - you have six

but pump becomes pum and chwech becomes chwe when placed before a noun, chwech also causes aspirate mutation:

pum peth - five things
chwe pheth - six things

When deg comes before a nasal consonant (m, n, ng, mh, nh, ngh) then it usually becomes deng:

deg ci - ten dogs
deg cath - ten cats
deg peth - ten things, but:
deng munud - ten minutes

Simples!

[The Silver Lining]

Oh, this is an awesome one! Polish is messed up like hell when it comes to numbers:

The numbers

1. jeden
2. dwa (m/n) / dwie (f)
3. trzy
4. cztery
5. pięć
6. sześć
7. siedem
8. osiem
9. dziewięć
10. dziesięć

"pies" is dog.

jeden pies - one dog
dwa psy - two dogs
trzy psy - three dogs
cztery psy - four dogs
pięć psów - five dogs
sześć / siedem / osiem / dziewięć / dziesięć pies - six / seven / eight / nine / ten dogs

The gist of it is that the word "pies" has a different mutation for the numbers two, three and four than it does for all other plurals. Other words have different rules, so for instance the number ten might cause it to have a specific permutation, or there might be entirely different numbers causing it altogether. It's one of the things that adds to the difficulty of learning vocabulary. In Latin, for instance, you memorize a word and its gender, and then you know with almost 90% certainty what all its mutations will be. In Polish, one of the additional things to memorize is the various mutations for the various numbers.

Dutch is so much more forgiving.

"hond" is dog.

één hond - one dog
twee / drie / vier / vijf / zes / zeven / acht / negen / tien honden - two (...) ten dogs

Numbers have no genders, cases in general do not exist, and there are zero exceptions to this rule. Fun stuff!

[Dyolf]

What's the difference between Polish psy and psów and why is it only used with 5?

When I said that you don't have to use plurals for 1-10 in Welsh, you can if you wish, but you have to put the preposition o (of) in between (and o causes soft mutation):

ci = dog, cŵn = dogs
cath = cat, cathod = cats
tŷ = house, tai = houses

dwy gath = two cats; dwy o gathod = two cats
tri chi = three dogs; tri o gŵn = three dogs
pum tŷ = five houses; pump o dai = five houses

[The Silver Lining]

Sorry, I made a typo. psów is used with every number above and including 5.

There's no difference in meaning between psy and psów in this context, but psów is the plural genitive form of pies, while psy is the plural nominative. I just looked that up, and it made me realize that this usage is fairly similar to the Welsh usage of o. The main difference is that, in Polish, this is the mandatory way to do it.

[Dyolf]

Sorry, I made a typo. psów is used with every number above and including 5.

There's no difference in meaning between psy and psów in this context, but psów is the plural genitive form of pies, while psy is the plural nominative. I just looked that up, and it made me realize that this usage is fairly similar to the Welsh usage of o. The main difference is that, in Polish, this is the mandatory way to do it.

Interesting that Polish uses the genitive like that. The Welsh version of tri o gŵn is more formal and tri chi is more colloquial. In fact, in colloquial Welsh people are tending to drop the aspirate mutation so you're probably more likely to hear tri ci rather than tri chi.

Another peculiarity of Welsh numbers is that it has two systems: vigesimal (based on twenties) and decimal. The vigesimal system is often referred to as the "traditional system":

1 - 10 are the same, but after 10 they change:

11- un ar ddeg (vigesimal); un deg un (decimal)
12 - deuddeg (vigesimal); un deg dau (decimal)
13 - tri ar ddeg ; un deg tri
14 - pedwar ar ddeg; un deg pedwar
15 - pymtheg; un deg pump
16 - un ar bymtheg; un deg chwech
17 - dau ar bymtheg; un deg saith
18 - daunaw; un deg naw
19 - pedwar ar bymtheg; un deg naw
20 - ugain; dau ddeg
21 - un ar hugain; dau ddeg un
30 - deg ar hugain; tri deg
40 - deugain; pedwar deg
50 - deg ar deugain; pum ddeg
80 - pedwar ugain; wyth ddeg
100 cant

You can probably see that the decimal system looks more logical, but the vigesimal system must be used when telling the time and is usually used with money.

[Dyolf]

I came across this today. It's a list of colour-words in 263 languages. https://github.com/younjin/colour-words ... /words.csv

[The Silver Lining]

Did you know: the title of an English book/movie/album/song is usually written with a capital letter for each verb, adjective, adverb and noun. In Dutch and many other languages, this is not the case.

[Alec Taylor]

I did know that, but then again, English is my first and only language.

[The Silver Lining]

At least this bit of trivia will remove any possible unclarity about why my song is called "Woeë wach-se nog op" instead of Woeë Wach-Se Nog Op".

[Artisan]

The rules of titles are just so ugly in English that I capitalize every word just so it looks consistent. Words that theoretically shouldn't be capitalized are the, to, a/an, and, of, on, by, it, for, stuff like that. I have no clue what to do with "with", "do", "be", "get", and stuff like that - and it looks especially wrong when the last word of a title isn't capitalized (e.g. "I Can't Believe it", "Let's Move on") so I just capitalize everything. It's easier and more consistent that way.

[Dyolf]

The rules of titles are just so ugly in English that I capitalize every word just so it looks consistent. Words that theoretically shouldn't be capitalized are the, to, a/an, and, of, on, by, it, for, stuff like that. I have no clue what to do with "with", "do", "be", "get", and stuff like that - and it looks especially wrong when the last word of a title isn't capitalized (e.g. "I Can't Believe it", "Let's Move on") so I just capitalize everything. It's easier and more consistent that way.

On, by and it can all be capitalised, e.g. "Get It On". Articles are never capitalised, unless the first word - "The Dark Side of the Moon". I think the same rules have bled over into Welsh too.

German is a weird one - all nouns are always capitalised in a sentence:

English: I ate an apple.
German: Ich aß einen Apfel.
Welsh: Roeddwn i'n bwyta afal.

English: She kicked the cat.
German: Sie trat die Katze.
Welsh: Wnaeth hi gicio'r gath.

English: He is drinking the water.
German: Er trinkt das Wasser.
Welsh: Mae o'n yfed y dŵr.

English: I have seen a woman.
German: Ich habe eine Frau gesehen.
Welsh: Dw i wedi gweld dynes.

English: I have a car.
German: Ich habe ein Auto.
Welsh: Mae gen i gar* / Mae car* gyda fi.

English: The woman sold the dog.
German: Die Frau verkaufte den Hund.
Welsh: Wnaeth y ddynes werthu'r ci.

English: The cat has a friend
German: Die Katze hat einen Freund
Welsh: Mae gen y gath gydwedd / Mae cydwedd gyda'r gath

English: You wanted a pet.
German: Du wolltest ein Haustier.
Welsh: Roeddet ti eisiau anifail anwes.

English: They will bring the ball.
German: Sie bringen den Ball.
Welsh: Bydden nhw'n dod â'r bêl.

English: We will take a dog for a walk
German: Wir werden einen Hund für einen Spaziergang
Welsh: Byddwn ni'n mynd â chi am dro

*Car is one of few words of Welsh origin which has been borrowed into English and has remained, rather than the other way around

EDIT: What can you notice about the Welsh language from those sentences? The colour coding should help. Apologies if my German is terrible.

[The Silver Lining]

I have the impression that in Welsh, the masculine & feminine pronouns also function as masculine & feminine articles.

she - wnaeth
the woman - wnaeth (y) ddynes

he - mae
the cat - mae (y) gath

Is that what you were hinting at?
Another thing is that there's the word "y" which I cannot quite attach a specific meaning to.

[Dyolf]

I have the impression that in Welsh, the masculine & feminine pronouns also function as masculine & feminine articles.

she - wnaeth
the woman - wnaeth (y) ddynes

he - mae
the cat - mae (y) gath

Is that what you were hinting at?
Another thing is that there's the word "y" which I cannot quite attach a specific meaning to.

No no, but good try.

wnaeth is just the third-person past tense of gwneud (do/make); it's used as a modal verb to say something happened in the past, but in a single instance. Translating English past-tense phrases can be tricky because the tenses aren't a one-for-one switch. The y is the definite article (the), but it can also be seen as 'r (following a vowel) or yr (following a consonant and before a vowel): y gath (the cat); yr afal (the apple) and mae'r gath (the cat is); yr is also used before a H: yr haul (the sun).

What I was actually getting at is that Welsh has no indefinite article (a/an). The sentence roeddwn i'n bwyta afal breaks down as:
Roeddwn - 1st person past tense (preterite) of bod (to be).
i - first person singular pronoun (following a consonant).
'n - a contraction of yn - used to link to be to the next verb.
bwyta - verb to eat
afal - apple
In Welsh, indefiniteness is implied through the lack of an article. Where English uses substitutes for a/an - words like 'some' (I want some apples) then it must be left untranslated because Welsh has no concept of indefinite articles: Dw i eisiau afalau (I want (some) apples).

Going back to the past tense, you could say Roeddwn i'n cerdded (I walked) which is literally "I was walking", because it happens over time; so wnes i gerdded wouldn't be right. But you can say wnes i anghofio (I forgot) because it happens in one moment; so roeddwn i'n cerdded pan wnes i anghofio (I was walking when I forgot). Roeddwn i eisiau afalau (I wanted apples), but not wnes i eisiau afalau.

Wnes is the 1st person singular past tense of gwneud (do/make).

Wnes i - I did
Wnest ti - You did
Wnaethoch chi - You did
Wnaethon ni - We did
Wnaeth o/e - He/it did
Wnaeth hi - She/it did
Wnathon nhw - They did

If you think that's complicated, Literary Welsh is even worse. Incidentally, Literary Welsh is, for all intents and purposes, a conlang!

[Dyolf]

How many different forms of articles does your native and/or second language have?

English

Indefinite: a (used before consonants); an (used before vowels)
Definite: the

Welsh

Indefinite: Welsh has no indefinite article.
Definite: 'r ("apostrophe-r" used when the previous word ends in a vowel regardless of what follows, e.g. mae'r); y (used if there is no previous word or if previous word ends in a consonant, except h, e.g. y gath, pen y bryn); yr (used when there is either no previous word or the previous word ends in a consonant and the following word begins with a vowel or h, e.g. yr afal, yr haul, pen yr afon).

[Artisan]

How many in/definite articles does it take to make other cultures struggle to learn our language so we can mock them for trying to learn it?

English is a weird, weird language. It's a miracle it came as far as it did, they rewrote the rule book as they went numerous times. I doubt any of the original rules in that rule book are still in effect. and selfie has been added to the dictionary so I'm all for Quebric becoming the new universal language!

[Dyolf]

How many in/definite articles does it take to make other cultures struggle to learn our language so we can mock them for trying to learn it?

If you're referring to Welsh, the whole 'r/yr/y isn't that hard to learn, because Welsh uses the definite article in places English doesn't it crops up a lot. But it has no indefinite article to learn at all! "cath" means both "cat" and "a cat", "cathod" means both "cats" and "some cats".

English is a weird, weird language. It's a miracle it came as far as it did, they rewrote the rule book as they went numerous times. I doubt any of the original rules in that rule book are still in effect. and selfie has been added to the dictionary so I'm all for Quebric becoming the new universal language!

Unfortunately Quebric is defunct; but I learnt a lot from the project. I have been working on a language family since scrapping it: three closely related languages codenamed "P", "Q" and "L".

I know German has a fair few articles depending on gender (and maybe number?), and it's been so long since I studied any French that I have no idea. As for languages like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian - I've never looked much beyond phonology or looking at how their cognates developed.

[Artisan]

How many in/definite articles does it take to make other cultures struggle to learn our language so we can mock them for trying to learn it?

If you're referring to Welsh, the whole 'r/yr/y isn't that hard to learn, because Welsh uses the definite article in places English doesn't it crops up a lot. But it has no indefinite article to learn at all! "cath" means both "cat" and "a cat", "cathod" means both "cats" and "some cats".

English is a weird, weird language. It's a miracle it came as far as it did, they rewrote the rule book as they went numerous times. I doubt any of the original rules in that rule book are still in effect. and selfie has been added to the dictionary so I'm all for Quebric becoming the new universal language!

Unfortunately Quebric is defunct; but I learnt a lot from the project. I have been working on a language family since scrapping it: three closely related languages codenamed "P", "Q" and "L".

I know German has a fair few articles depending on gender (and maybe number?), and it's been so long since I studied any French that I have no idea. As for languages like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian - I've never looked much beyond phonology or looking at how their cognates developed.

For the first bit, I was referring to English. And building an entire language ain't the easiest of things - good that it was a learning experience! I took two years of French but only remember how to say scuba diving; the one thing that I took away is that if there's one thing easy about English, it's the lack of masculine/feminine words (just nouns, if I remember right?) - I remember losing points on tests for getting "word genders" mixed up. Insert political correctness joke here.

[Dyolf]

Being a Germanic language, English used to have a 3-gender system, like German - masculine, feminine and neuter. Neuter does not mean "no gender", but is as much a gender as masc. and fem. Usually this means that certain things like articles, adjectives, prepositions, numerals may change form to match the gender of the noun they're modifying. Gender gives an added layer of information that we, as English speakers, are not used to. Sometimes a word can have two meanings, these words are usually the result of sound-changes over time and are unrelated but have come to look and sound identical, but they may have different genders, therefore if someone were to mishear a word they could infer the correct meaning from the rest of the sentence as the whole sentence would match the gender of the misheard noun. English lost its gender system a long time ago, it can be seen in the pronouns "he", "she" and "it" (masc., fem. and neut.). Welsh has only two genders and so has no word for "it", everything must be referred to as "e/fe" (he) or "hi" (she): "Ble mae'r gadair?" / "Mae hi yn y gegin" - "Where's the chair?" / "It (she) is in the kitchen"; "Ble mae'r ci?" / "Mae e wedi marw" - "Where's the dog?" / "It (he) died". This perplexes some English speakers because we have come to use (and think of) "it" as being genderless and used of non-living things, it's even considered rude to call someone "it" rather than "he" or "she", despite the fact that they're all different forms of the same thing - 3rd person singular pronouns. Also because "cat" is fem. and "dog" is masc. this means we must use the corresponding pronouns regardless of the animals' sexes. Unless you use their name or another noun (bitch vs dog etc). Most European languages do use grammatical genders that match sex gender, so "man" is almost always masc. "girl" is fem. I think German has some sex-gender words which are grammatically neuter though, which is a bit tricky to remember when learning.

Basically grammatical gender is an extra layer of information coded into the language. Many languages are losing it slowly (Irish) or have lost it (English), along with other features like honourifics (Irish, English) - the two forms of "you" in English are gone: "thee" and "thou" - "thee" disappeared (except for some dialects) and "thou" became "you". Irish, too, has lost its two forms of "you" but Welsh is still clinging onto its two ("ti" and "chi" - "ti" is singular only and used with friends or people you know well; "chi" is singular or plural and is always used with people you want to be more respectful towards. But use of "chi" is slowly dropping away and "ti" is becoming more and more common with each new generation.)

I don't mind English losing its gender system... imagine having to learn 30 words just to count from 1 to 10! (May be a slight exaggeration).

[The Silver Lining]

That's not an exaggeration, Dyolf. It's painful reality for people trying to learn Polish.

[Dyolf]

That's not an exaggeration, Dyolf. It's painful reality for people trying to learn Polish.

Really? I'm not all that familiar with Polish, apart from being aware of some of its phonological features, like ł = /w/ and voiced consonants being devoiced at the end of words. Wrocław = /vrɔt͡swaf/ where the W is seen to be both /v/and /f/. That's about all I know Are there really thirty words for 1-10? To get from 1-10 in Welsh there are 13 words - only 2, 3 and 4 have masculine and feminine forms. But from 11-20 there is the vigesimal system and decimal system. After 20 Welsh basically just starts repeating patterns.

0 - dim, sero
1 - un
2 - dau (m) dwy (f)
3 - tri (m) tair (f)
4 - pedwar (m) pedair (f)
5 - pump
6 - chwech
7 - saith
8 - wyth
9 - naw
10 - deg
11 - unarddeg (vigesimal) un deg un (decimal)
12 - deuddeg (vig.) un deg dau/dwy (dec.)
13 - tri/tair ar ddeg (vig.) un deg tri/tair (dec.)
14 - pedwar/pedair ar ddeg (vig.) un deg pedwar/pedair (dec.)
15 - pymtheg (vig.) un deg pump (dec.)
16 - un ar bymtheg (vig.) un deg chwech (dec.)
17 - dau/dwy ar bymtheg (vig) un deg saith (dec.)
18 - daunaw (vig.) un deg wyth (dec.)
19 - pedwar/pedair ar bymtheg (vig.) un deg naw (dec.)
20 - ugain (vig.) dauddeg (dec.)

The decimal pattern is easier to learn, but it can't be used with time and money

[The Silver Lining]

Okay, here's a fun little update. When you wrote this post, I believe this thread may have died because I was unable to respond properly. Meanwhile (starting from 2018, to be specific) I've been following actual classroom lessons in Polish, so I can give some further insights.

Of note: when I said there's "30 words", I was probably exaggerating somewhat by including declensions. It's a bit of a stretch to count those as separate words, so take that as you will.

1. jeden (m), jedna (f), jedno (n)
2. dwa (m), dwie (f), dwa (n)
3. trzy (virile) / trzej (other)
4. cztery / czterej
5. pięć / pięciu
6. sześć / sześciu
7. siedem / siedmiu
8. osiem / ośmiu
9. dziewięć / dziewięciu
10. dziesięć / dziesięciu

(Not sure if "virile" is a common English word, but it refers to any group of objects / creatures which contains at least one male person.)

What makes it far more complicated is two extra aspects though:

Firstly, each of those words has its declension, and most of those are highly irregular.

Secondly, the number has an effect on the declension of the noun. You could consider Slavic languages to have three numbers: singular (1), a few (2-4) and many (5+).
For instance, in nominative:
* One dog: jeden pies
* Two dogs: dwa psy (ending is -y)
* Five dogs: pięć psów (ending is -ów)

Not having enough fun yet? Even the verb changes depending on the number:
* One dog is running: jeden pies biegnie
* Two dogs are running: dwa psy biegnią
* Five dogs: pięć psów biegnie

I keep telling myself that when I write it down, it's really not all that complicated. But if you're having a conversation and you try to use correct grammar, there are just so many rules to think about, this number system is just impossible to master fluently!